For this situation and for waste policy generally the concept from physics of "entropy" offers a nice analogy.
(And if you were a cheeky consultant working on E-waste policy for the Victorian government you would definitely include a whole line about entropy from Muse's "2nd law" album in your regulatory impact statement)
Entropy in the waste/materials context can be thought of as how easily the economic value of the materials can be extracted.
Small amounts of energy (i.e. lifting) applied efficiently (i.e. on the same day) move matter from a high-entropy state to a low-entropy state (i.e. bundled up on the sidewalk visible for others with low search costs).
I would love to see our policy focus on waste shift from trying to make business-as-usual waste models more cost-efficient to asking "what minimal energy actions that are incentive-compatible could reduce entropy the most?"
On E-waste I had grand visions of the state co-ordinating waste collection and diversion to create an enormous hanger full of old TVs.... a low entropy state from which materials extraction and recycling at scale would (surely - though I have not run the numbers) become feasible.
Growing up in Brisbane, my assumption was always that the council said they’d come on Monday, but wouldn’t come until Thursday in order to let the scavengers pick through the piles, which is an efficient outcome for all involved.
Now living in Melbourne, I noticed that our council collections say that picking from people’s piles is prohibited (as if that’s stopping anyone) but also incredibly prompt. Our last collection earlier this year they were out on the street collecting 7am of the advised day. Too efficient to let the market work!
I was under the impression that taking things from the kerbside collection piles was technically breaking the law, simply never enforced. Ie: once it hits the pile it technically belongs to the council, so taking it is theft.
Probably just some urban myth, though. It's certainly never stopped me taking the odd thing here and there.
Alex, do you know what the council do with said collections?
Do they dump it as land fill or make money reselling, etc., etc.,
Here where I live in Switzerland it is basically illegal to put stuff on the road without attaching a special sticker and advising the council to pick it up..
I can say that people leave some total sh*t out there when they could take such stuff to the local recycling station: metals & glass. Also the supermarkets provide recycling for plastics and one can take old electronic appliances, cables, modems, doesn't matter - electronic - to an electronic store and they 'must' take it and dispose of it for you.. but people still leave sh*t on the street... But I've often thought that having a drop off place nearby for all stuff would encourage people to sift through it and take it away and then the council pick up the left overs... but we pay for plastic garbage bags here to dispose of anything else from ones household... which people want to avoid paying for... but money is a thing in the equation...
I do remember when leaving Sydney, that I left stuff by the local 'clothing bin' and within a few hours 'it was gone forever from my life'...
We lived in Switzerland (Zurich) for a couple of years and thought the way they do rubbish collection had a lot to offer. Particularly the special rubbish bags for general waste.
For those who aren't familiar, you have to use specific - taxed - garbage bags, or attached similarly taxed stickers (CHF5 for a 40L bag when I was there) to your own bags, otherwise the rubbish will not be removed. But disposing of anything recyclable was free.
The criticisms I would make are (and bear in mind we were there in ~2009 so some of these may have already changed).
* Having to manually separate the glass by colour, and take it somewhere else to drop off (at the train station, so we were there most days, but a bit of work eg: after a party)
* Having to bundle up cardboard and leave it out once a quarter.
* Leaving rubbish bags just lying on the kerb to be collected was a bit weird and we initially worried it might attract rats. You would certainly never do this here in QLD where the possums and crows would tear it apart.
The details of the collection systems may have changed/improved, but I think the fundamentals - charge specifically for general rubbish during disposal (so you're reminded of it frequently), make recyclables free - is an excellent idea. It certainly cut down on how much stuff we put into our general waste.
After that we lived in the US (Arizona) for a couple of years, which was pretty much the complete opposite. Just one enormous wheelie bin, no recycling. :D
Firstly, thanks for your great comment.. well expressed.. love it...
I found this information for Basel - 2022:
Bebbi-Säcke erhalten Sie im Detailhandel (z.B. Coop, Denner, Migros), fragen Sie an der Kasse danach. Sie sind erhältlich in folgenden Grössen:
10 Liter, Rolle für CHF 14.00 (20 Stk. pro Rolle, immer inkl. Entsorgungsgebühr) = 0.70 Rappen each.
17 Liter, Rolle für CHF 12.00 (10 Stk. pro Rolle, immer inkl. Entsorgungsgebühr) = 1.20 CHF each.
35 Liter, Rolle für CHF 23.00 (10 Stk. pro Rolle, immer inkl. Entsorgungsgebühr) = 2.30 CHF each
60 Liter, Rolle für CHF 33.00 (10 Stk. pro Rolle, immer inkl. Entsorgungsgebühr) = 3.30 CHF each
I live in an apartment block and we have containers for the paper/cardboard and I have now stopped sorting it and just throw it in the one big bin.. People are supposed to leave it on the roadside as with the rubbish bags - but only on the designated days.. they should not be left out for days before collection.
Your are correct with the Quarter pickups and I don't know why they don't have a paper bin down the road so that we can take it daily if we want.. on the way to the supermarket !!!
I can say with the paper, all tied up neatly.. it gets thrown into the Garbage Truck and the big scoop thing at the back just pushes it all into the bigger container.. all together.. so the tied up neatly is really, ??, so that it doesn't fly all over the place..
I've never spent so much time on garbage collection in my live.. in Australia.. wheelie bin and everything in together.. simple..
Glass: interesting we are supposed to sort it by green, brown, clear/white.. but I'm not clear that when I watch them pick it all up and dump it in the truck ??? that it doesn't all end up together.. I have no proof..
But recycling here has made me think : I leave/take back all the plastic I can to the supermarket.. this was suggested on the German news by the German Environmental Minister as a way of letter the 'shops' know that they should do something about packaging!!!! So why should I pay for my Garbage Sack filled with stuff that Companies do nothing about changing to recyclable packaging?
All our sacks here in Basel are taken to be burnt, the air is purified.. and the dust ?? shipped to ??? Germany/France.. ...
Anyway, the uptake is that I'm much more aware of 'garbage'.. and it makes me furious when I see people who do not play the game and dump their General rubbish on the footpaths, as our options are many...
But the big question is, as was found out in Australia, is the stuff really recycled? or stuck in a ware house somewhere ???
I think Recycling is great .... BUT.... it isn't an excuse to just buy water in plastic bottles.
I say this personally as I caught myself buying something one day and the thought 'it will be recycled' popped in my head... as if that makes it alright to continue buying 'stuff...'
I sometimes go out with a group cleaning up the streets, volunteers, and the cigarette butts are one of the worst... Yet Switzerland caters with outdoor bins with ashtrays on top, mostly.. horror... that people throw their butts on the streets...
My last sentence is the leader of the 'pick up garbage' told me that whilst the bottle is PET the cap is not... !!!!!!! I find that interesting to contemplate...
I grew up on the Sunshine Coast, where they do not do kerbside pick up. It's a great thing that Brisbane does and people on the Coast don't know what they're missing. My family cleaned out my Grandma's basement earlier this year and there was literally so much crap we were worried the council wouldn't take it because there was so much, and quite a few big bulky items. 3 days later 90% of it was gone from scavengers. Amazing.
I once got a stunningly good old wooden coffee table that has different woods through it to create patterns on the table surface. It's bonkers the stuff people will just throw out. It took a good few hours of sanding and staining to get it back into condition, and It's got a little chip in it in the corner but I would be confident I could get a few hundred $$ if I ever tried to resell it. You would need to pay a carpenter a lot of money for them to build something like it from scratch these days.
Really enjoy that you present your writing and insights in a really accessible manner. So much economic writing is overly laden with jargon and framed in ways that are basically impenetrable to those not formally trained in the language.
It comes to mind quickly... people in Venice and also in Berlin, locals... were sick of all the tourists.. which was not understood.. I think.. my opinion.. until people started asking 'but how do I benefit personally by having all these tourists?'. An economic question was then asked.. this is what Cameron is doing wonderfully.
I first went to Amsterdam after the first covid lockdown. the place was nearly empty.. then an acquaintance and person living there mentioned that it is horrible with so many tourists.. they expect so much, encroach on locals space and all under the name of 'tourism brings money'.. but to whom??? Follow the money rule...
Reminds me of may happy visits to the city dump when I was a kid. I got a lot of stuff for my science "experiments," none of which resulted in any lucrative breakthroughs, but it was fun.
Even outside formal kerbside collection windows, if you leave something that looks (and is!) like it could be useful (ie: isn't obviously rubbish) out on the kerb it will typically be gone in a matter of hours.
Have done this numerous times with things that were still serviceable, but I just could not be arsed with the "correct" options (taking it to the tip, sell on FB/Gumtree/etc, store until the next pickup, etc). Even when I put stuff out during the formal kerbside collections, if it's something that might have a question mark over status (eg: an old TV or appliance), I'll put a sticky note on it with "Works!" or "Broken - screen smashed".
I've tried selling stuff and never really successful.. it worked but the time and effort was a horror.. but... a few months ago, I sold my old iPhone on FB and was amazed that within half an hour it was sold... I was over joyed... the guy that bought it tried to beat me down on the price and I refused.. I became a real haggler and enjoyed it... he ended up paying the price I wanted.. Win!!
But it is a great idea to put a sticky note on such stuff...
Here in Switzerland, people will write 'gratis/free' but more often not and things stay out for days/weeks...
I enjoy the insights and perspectives shared throughout each article. Recently, I have been caught by surprise by the conclusions. Do we mean to say that public programs targeting pensioners has less public support compared to universal ones which help everyone coordinate kerbside pickup, even though the pensioner one was reinstated? Just a tad confused.
Perhaps I didn't explain it well. The pensioner program was a substitute while the main universal collection ceased. I'm not aware that the pensioner service has recommenced, but last I checked it was replaced with the universal service again.
Great column. And great social institution.
For this situation and for waste policy generally the concept from physics of "entropy" offers a nice analogy.
(And if you were a cheeky consultant working on E-waste policy for the Victorian government you would definitely include a whole line about entropy from Muse's "2nd law" album in your regulatory impact statement)
Entropy in the waste/materials context can be thought of as how easily the economic value of the materials can be extracted.
Small amounts of energy (i.e. lifting) applied efficiently (i.e. on the same day) move matter from a high-entropy state to a low-entropy state (i.e. bundled up on the sidewalk visible for others with low search costs).
I would love to see our policy focus on waste shift from trying to make business-as-usual waste models more cost-efficient to asking "what minimal energy actions that are incentive-compatible could reduce entropy the most?"
On E-waste I had grand visions of the state co-ordinating waste collection and diversion to create an enormous hanger full of old TVs.... a low entropy state from which materials extraction and recycling at scale would (surely - though I have not run the numbers) become feasible.
Growing up in Brisbane, my assumption was always that the council said they’d come on Monday, but wouldn’t come until Thursday in order to let the scavengers pick through the piles, which is an efficient outcome for all involved.
Now living in Melbourne, I noticed that our council collections say that picking from people’s piles is prohibited (as if that’s stopping anyone) but also incredibly prompt. Our last collection earlier this year they were out on the street collecting 7am of the advised day. Too efficient to let the market work!
I was under the impression that taking things from the kerbside collection piles was technically breaking the law, simply never enforced. Ie: once it hits the pile it technically belongs to the council, so taking it is theft.
Probably just some urban myth, though. It's certainly never stopped me taking the odd thing here and there.
Alex, do you know what the council do with said collections?
Do they dump it as land fill or make money reselling, etc., etc.,
Here where I live in Switzerland it is basically illegal to put stuff on the road without attaching a special sticker and advising the council to pick it up..
I can say that people leave some total sh*t out there when they could take such stuff to the local recycling station: metals & glass. Also the supermarkets provide recycling for plastics and one can take old electronic appliances, cables, modems, doesn't matter - electronic - to an electronic store and they 'must' take it and dispose of it for you.. but people still leave sh*t on the street... But I've often thought that having a drop off place nearby for all stuff would encourage people to sift through it and take it away and then the council pick up the left overs... but we pay for plastic garbage bags here to dispose of anything else from ones household... which people want to avoid paying for... but money is a thing in the equation...
I do remember when leaving Sydney, that I left stuff by the local 'clothing bin' and within a few hours 'it was gone forever from my life'...
We lived in Switzerland (Zurich) for a couple of years and thought the way they do rubbish collection had a lot to offer. Particularly the special rubbish bags for general waste.
For those who aren't familiar, you have to use specific - taxed - garbage bags, or attached similarly taxed stickers (CHF5 for a 40L bag when I was there) to your own bags, otherwise the rubbish will not be removed. But disposing of anything recyclable was free.
The criticisms I would make are (and bear in mind we were there in ~2009 so some of these may have already changed).
* Having to manually separate the glass by colour, and take it somewhere else to drop off (at the train station, so we were there most days, but a bit of work eg: after a party)
* Having to bundle up cardboard and leave it out once a quarter.
* Leaving rubbish bags just lying on the kerb to be collected was a bit weird and we initially worried it might attract rats. You would certainly never do this here in QLD where the possums and crows would tear it apart.
The details of the collection systems may have changed/improved, but I think the fundamentals - charge specifically for general rubbish during disposal (so you're reminded of it frequently), make recyclables free - is an excellent idea. It certainly cut down on how much stuff we put into our general waste.
After that we lived in the US (Arizona) for a couple of years, which was pretty much the complete opposite. Just one enormous wheelie bin, no recycling. :D
Firstly, thanks for your great comment.. well expressed.. love it...
I found this information for Basel - 2022:
Bebbi-Säcke erhalten Sie im Detailhandel (z.B. Coop, Denner, Migros), fragen Sie an der Kasse danach. Sie sind erhältlich in folgenden Grössen:
10 Liter, Rolle für CHF 14.00 (20 Stk. pro Rolle, immer inkl. Entsorgungsgebühr) = 0.70 Rappen each.
17 Liter, Rolle für CHF 12.00 (10 Stk. pro Rolle, immer inkl. Entsorgungsgebühr) = 1.20 CHF each.
35 Liter, Rolle für CHF 23.00 (10 Stk. pro Rolle, immer inkl. Entsorgungsgebühr) = 2.30 CHF each
60 Liter, Rolle für CHF 33.00 (10 Stk. pro Rolle, immer inkl. Entsorgungsgebühr) = 3.30 CHF each
I live in an apartment block and we have containers for the paper/cardboard and I have now stopped sorting it and just throw it in the one big bin.. People are supposed to leave it on the roadside as with the rubbish bags - but only on the designated days.. they should not be left out for days before collection.
Your are correct with the Quarter pickups and I don't know why they don't have a paper bin down the road so that we can take it daily if we want.. on the way to the supermarket !!!
I can say with the paper, all tied up neatly.. it gets thrown into the Garbage Truck and the big scoop thing at the back just pushes it all into the bigger container.. all together.. so the tied up neatly is really, ??, so that it doesn't fly all over the place..
I've never spent so much time on garbage collection in my live.. in Australia.. wheelie bin and everything in together.. simple..
Glass: interesting we are supposed to sort it by green, brown, clear/white.. but I'm not clear that when I watch them pick it all up and dump it in the truck ??? that it doesn't all end up together.. I have no proof..
But recycling here has made me think : I leave/take back all the plastic I can to the supermarket.. this was suggested on the German news by the German Environmental Minister as a way of letter the 'shops' know that they should do something about packaging!!!! So why should I pay for my Garbage Sack filled with stuff that Companies do nothing about changing to recyclable packaging?
All our sacks here in Basel are taken to be burnt, the air is purified.. and the dust ?? shipped to ??? Germany/France.. ...
Anyway, the uptake is that I'm much more aware of 'garbage'.. and it makes me furious when I see people who do not play the game and dump their General rubbish on the footpaths, as our options are many...
But the big question is, as was found out in Australia, is the stuff really recycled? or stuck in a ware house somewhere ???
I think Recycling is great .... BUT.... it isn't an excuse to just buy water in plastic bottles.
I say this personally as I caught myself buying something one day and the thought 'it will be recycled' popped in my head... as if that makes it alright to continue buying 'stuff...'
I sometimes go out with a group cleaning up the streets, volunteers, and the cigarette butts are one of the worst... Yet Switzerland caters with outdoor bins with ashtrays on top, mostly.. horror... that people throw their butts on the streets...
My last sentence is the leader of the 'pick up garbage' told me that whilst the bottle is PET the cap is not... !!!!!!! I find that interesting to contemplate...
I grew up on the Sunshine Coast, where they do not do kerbside pick up. It's a great thing that Brisbane does and people on the Coast don't know what they're missing. My family cleaned out my Grandma's basement earlier this year and there was literally so much crap we were worried the council wouldn't take it because there was so much, and quite a few big bulky items. 3 days later 90% of it was gone from scavengers. Amazing.
I once got a stunningly good old wooden coffee table that has different woods through it to create patterns on the table surface. It's bonkers the stuff people will just throw out. It took a good few hours of sanding and staining to get it back into condition, and It's got a little chip in it in the corner but I would be confident I could get a few hundred $$ if I ever tried to resell it. You would need to pay a carpenter a lot of money for them to build something like it from scratch these days.
Yep. After you've experienced it, you marvel at the economic efficiencies of it all. That's why I felt the need to write about it!
Really enjoy that you present your writing and insights in a really accessible manner. So much economic writing is overly laden with jargon and framed in ways that are basically impenetrable to those not formally trained in the language.
I enjoy Cameron's writing for similar reasons.
It comes to mind quickly... people in Venice and also in Berlin, locals... were sick of all the tourists.. which was not understood.. I think.. my opinion.. until people started asking 'but how do I benefit personally by having all these tourists?'. An economic question was then asked.. this is what Cameron is doing wonderfully.
I first went to Amsterdam after the first covid lockdown. the place was nearly empty.. then an acquaintance and person living there mentioned that it is horrible with so many tourists.. they expect so much, encroach on locals space and all under the name of 'tourism brings money'.. but to whom??? Follow the money rule...
Reminds me of may happy visits to the city dump when I was a kid. I got a lot of stuff for my science "experiments," none of which resulted in any lucrative breakthroughs, but it was fun.
Yeah, the magic of finding stuff at the dump is gone now with the way the dump is managed. But to its credit, Brisbane now has shops where you can buy stuff people took to the dump because they couldn't be bothered selling it. https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/clean-and-green/rubbish-tips-and-bins/waste-and-recycling-facilities/treasure-troves-and-second-hand-shopping
Seagull Centre, Thames, NZ.
Drop off saleable ( it’s amazing what can be sold) items on the way into Council Refuse Station.
Results:
Less rubbish to land fill
Employ 8 FTEs, who probably wouldn’t be employed otherwise
Provide low cost goods to those who need it
Returns a profit to fund waste and environmental education in the local community.
Every town should have one
https://www.seagullcentre.co.nz/
Even outside formal kerbside collection windows, if you leave something that looks (and is!) like it could be useful (ie: isn't obviously rubbish) out on the kerb it will typically be gone in a matter of hours.
Have done this numerous times with things that were still serviceable, but I just could not be arsed with the "correct" options (taking it to the tip, sell on FB/Gumtree/etc, store until the next pickup, etc). Even when I put stuff out during the formal kerbside collections, if it's something that might have a question mark over status (eg: an old TV or appliance), I'll put a sticky note on it with "Works!" or "Broken - screen smashed".
Our neighbourhood does this a lot. It's great when things get taken quickly. But sometimes junk stays out for weeks and clearly no one wants it.
I've tried selling stuff and never really successful.. it worked but the time and effort was a horror.. but... a few months ago, I sold my old iPhone on FB and was amazed that within half an hour it was sold... I was over joyed... the guy that bought it tried to beat me down on the price and I refused.. I became a real haggler and enjoyed it... he ended up paying the price I wanted.. Win!!
But it is a great idea to put a sticky note on such stuff...
Here in Switzerland, people will write 'gratis/free' but more often not and things stay out for days/weeks...
I enjoy the insights and perspectives shared throughout each article. Recently, I have been caught by surprise by the conclusions. Do we mean to say that public programs targeting pensioners has less public support compared to universal ones which help everyone coordinate kerbside pickup, even though the pensioner one was reinstated? Just a tad confused.
Perhaps I didn't explain it well. The pensioner program was a substitute while the main universal collection ceased. I'm not aware that the pensioner service has recommenced, but last I checked it was replaced with the universal service again.
Oh, that makes so much more sense! Thanks for re-explaining. 🙏🏻